L10 Caste

 Understanding caste  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrotx-Rg7Hw by Prof. Anand Teltumbde

Prof. Anand Teltumde explains how caste system can be understood as a phenomenon that is not just alive but thriving even in this day and age. He also presents some solutions dependent on changing the current material conditions of the Dalits as a prerequisite for the annihilation of caste.

Youtube transcript: (under edit )

 caste as you all know has been a defining feature of Indian Society for Millennia. understanding it does not require dwelling into speculative debates about his origin as caste has
continually evolved uh what cast said today is not
what they were at the Inception nor even during the transformative period of J
fle and Babas ambedkar movement recognizing this ution is crucial as
cast are under cast has undergone profound changes under the impact of
political and economic shifts before and during colonial times and early postc
colonial decades these changes however are often overlooked in contemporary
sociological and political
discourse while
classical cast was regit religiously sanctioned and occupationally defined
the Contemporary form operates as a sociopolitical and economic
category with more fluid boundaries yet the Persistence of cast discrimination
andami cast based violence and its faval place in politics demonstrate its
enduring power in Indian Society to understand cast constitutional and
structural development the perspective provided in Mark Cent's seminar book
competing equalities law and backward classes in India may be useful it
describes three modes of manifestation of cast one sacral mode refers to the
traditional ritualistic and hierarchical understanding of cast rooted in
religious and cultural norms cast viewed as part of a unified Hindu religious
order hierarchically organized according to varnas that is brah chhatria VHA and
sudra this mode Often invokes by courts and Colonial
authorities relied on scriptural doctrines and Notions of Purity and
potion to classify casts with personal laws applied differently to twice Bor
that is vakas and sudras two sectarian
mode this represents cast as a community based
identity often aligned with shared social practices kingship and
endogamy cast function as independent religious communities with distinct Doctrine and practices the
self-contained units operated autonomously independent of Border broader Hindu religious
principles three associational mode mode it highlights the evolution of cast
as a political or organizational identity where cast groups mobilized for
economic political and social advantages C act as self-governing social units not
necessarily tied to religion but organized around shared cultural and
social functions this mode this mode extends Beyond Hinduism
to include like structures among other religious communities such as Muslims Christians and
PES the colonial state applied these modes variably to shot its purposes
while it recognized cast role in local governance through sectarian and
associational Frameworks it relied heavily on saal mode for personal law
governance the sacral framework reinforced a colonial schema that
conceptualized India as a land of religious communities influencing social and political discourses including the
antias movements edar for instance heavily criti Hindu scriptures that is
Dharma shastras in his efforts to anilite cost reflecting the dominance of sacral conception of cast in his thought
process his ultimate Act of conversion to Buddhism also underscores sacral
conception of cast however in reality cast confirm more to the seian and
associational modes they operated as autonomous quas religious communities
with distinct practices and cultural systems often independent of scriptural
mandates this cultural embeddedness made cast a deeply internalized part of
Indian Society associational characteristics such as self-governance were also evident
particularly in plur istic setting where diverse communities coexisted
harmoniously one may identify these three modes being associated with the
wna hierarchy from the Brahman downwards while brahmanic cast followed the saal
mode in ordering their hierarchy as per the religious scriptures in a diminishing manner the sudra and AAS
reflected sectarian and associational modes this corresponds to the empirical
reality that in the rural areas the practitioners of cast that is sudras and
AAS do not have an iota of scriptural sense behind the
conduct behind their conduct but the C contradiction between them unfolds in
the most pronounced manner often taking violent forms cast among the upper burnas was
ritually orded however as their Urban dwelling stata entered capitalist networks during
colonial times the ritualistic rigidities loosened within it influenced
by Logic of minimizing transactional cost the spread of capitalist modernity
among its Western educated segment also had significant share in loosening the
ritualistic relations the cost Within These veras for all practical purposes
show up as a single cluster their manifestation scarely noticed as the innocuous cultural
practices they influenc deritualization across their cast post Independence the sacral
framework faced some challenges notably from the passage of Hindu code bill and
the Constitutional abolition of unability by article 17 yet the broader
constitutional framework retain sacral elements such as in article 341 which
defin scheduled cast within a Hindu framework that is which was later extended to SS and
Buddhist assumed to be the sect of Hinduism this approach perpetuated cast
and communal identities facilitating their continued exploitation by political
forces the Constitution's sacral underpinnings coupled with the ruling
classes manipulation ensured the preservation of C structures under the guise of social justice this became
evident in the abolition of pability and the subsequent extension of reservations
beyond the scheduled cost a category specifically created to implement reservations as per the last Colonial
Constitution wi the government of India act
1935 if reservations understood as an extraordinary extraordinary measure for
an extraordinary issue had been restricted to this exceptional category
cast itself could have been abolished by creating the close schedule as a quasi
class for the Earth well untable cast The Connection of the entire Untouchable cost cluster representing worst
manifestation of cost discrimination with with the Hindu car system was
technically severed this could have allowed the car structure as at large to be abolished
without affecting reservation for the specific group however the ruling classes
unwilling to relinquish cast their providential weapon for dividing people
chose a different course to reinforce the logic of and maintain the cast
structure reservations were extended to the scheduled tribes and backward C an
Amorous Amor amorphous category potentially encompassing all in the
backward country like India while it may be acknowledged that the scheduled tribe ped both social
stigma and physical exclusion similar to the scheduled cost this issue could have
been addressed by merging them with scheduled cost for reservation purposes a mechanism could have been
easily devised to ensure their proportional share within the Cota system the remaining groups however did
not suffer social stigma or exclusion based on cast identity the extension of
reservations to these groups fortified the cast Sy rather than dismantling it
serving the interest of the ruling classes under the pretext of promoting social
justice the abolition of unability without the abolition of cast was both
theoretically and empirically meaningless Dr ambedkar himself understood this yet found himself unable
to address it in the Constitution constituent assembly reservations while a
measure to redress historic IAL injustices were not a panasia for the
entrench cast hierarchy however they were projected as such potentially cing
Society fragmenting solidarity and fostering division politics reservations
moreover allowed the ruling classes to evade the responsibility of implementing
Universal measures such as free Education Health Care and livelihood security fundamental inputs required for
the minimal empowerment of all people without these Universal Provisions it
may be argued even the reservation system could not achieve its intended
efficacy since reservations have become a significant drop for cast
identities and electoral politics their primary beneficiary cast today may be
seen as constitutional C the classical C system led to content with the for
forces of capitalism might have gradually withered away instead it was transplanted into the modernist
framework of the Constitution rendering it nearly indestructible since the Constitution
has privileged the sacral mode restricting the scheduled cast to Hindus the associated notion of hierarchy also
is inherited by the Contemporary cast cost do remain a deeply hierarchical
system with the war of homing and notional met structure and subcast and
sub subcast creating intricate nested hierarchies Colonial attempts to codify
C through sensus exercises fail to capture their fluid and evolving nature
new C have emerged While others have dissolved over time illustrating the dynamic
adaptability of cast this everchanging structure continues to reinforce cast as
a pervasive ideology of superity and imperity internalized by individual at
subconscious
level the cast Dynamics was significantly boosted by the political
economic policies by the government during 1950s and 1960s the congress party government was
obligated to fulfill promises made during the freedom struggle foremost among these was Land Reform accordingly
land reforms were implemented through various land sealing legislation of the states while these reforms sounded good
on paper they embedded a political objective of the Congress that is to create a class from among the most
popular sudra cast band that would serve as its agent in rural areas where it
lacked organization excess land was distributed to sudras tenants whose
names appeared in land records however many dalis and adasis who might have
been actual teers of land as sub tenants of these sudras tenants were excluded on
The Plea that their names did not figure in land records they created a land
owning class of sudra f in rural areas when the Green Revolution was
implemented soon thereafter huge productivity gains ured to these landowning Farmers en reaching them
significantly the Green Revolution a capitally strategy to boost agriculture productivity created many markets such
as markets for inputs outputs credit money Implement Services Etc which
provided business opportunities to a section of these farmer farmers who
among considerable Surplus from untaxed agricultural income they even expanded
Beyond Village boundaries at Petty businessmen such as Transporters food processors contractors Etc interfacing
with politic IC power structures and germinating political aspirations while
they initially served as Congress agents in rural areas as planned their increasing demand could
not be accommodated by the Congress leading to the rise of regional parties
it made electoral politics increasingly competitive as the congress's AA of the
freedom struggle fed accentuated by debacles
of Chinese war and neeru demise political parties sought to wo cast and
religious communities inaugurating the W Bank politics Theiss organized under the
ambedkar movement emerged as an important word bank with edar as their
icon to mobilize them while this process strengthened the sudra cast through
their ties to the class of R Farmers metamorphosed into Political leaders it
made theit correspondingly vulnerable a able in rural settings the spread of capitalist relations in rural areas
destroyed traditional in interdependence in villages reducing theis to rural
proletariat utterly dependent on the re Farmers for Farm wages for their
survival while The Agrarian economy turned capitalist old feudal relations
came handy in suppressing wages the resulting contradictions between sudra capitalist farmers and dalit farm
laborers manifested through cast F lines leading to a new gener of atrocities
first seen in kelvin many in Tamil Nadu in 1968 it is vital to understand that
these changes in the cast complexion of society were primarily caused by
political economic Transformations and not by cultural or psychological
processes politics based on cast identity particularly for the
emancipation of lower cast like the needs careful strategic considerations
on one hand it provides a platform for the historically oppressed to assert
their rights and challenges challenge entrench hierarchies on the other it RIS
perpetuating cost as a defining social and political Factor rather than
dismantling it cost based politics often fragments marginalized groups as seen in
the dalit movement IT addresses symptoms like represent ation and policy measures
rather than structural causes such as economic inequities and land ownership patterns political parties claiming to
represent dalits or lower cost are sometimes co-opted by dominant cost or
class interests diluting their emancipatory agenda for instance theit
leaders in mainstream parties May prioritize Party Loyalty or Community
interests the essence of cast itself hierarchy seeking divisive and prone or
splintering makes it incompatible with building radical emancipatory movements
the simple understanding is often overwhelmed by the absess of cast identities what then are the
Alternatives the obvious answer lies in class-based coalitions since Cast
Operation intersects with economic exploitation addressing broader socioeconomic inequalities
can strengthen theit emancipation movements with emphasis on land reforms
and workers rights have sometimes complemented cost based struggles while
representation is vital dismantling the material basis of cost that is unequal
land distribution limited access to education and Health Care is essential
for True emancipation the failure of customary politics of representation should make
us realize that true representation necessitates Universal empowerment Babas ambedkar's
Vision wherein educated delit would act as protective umbrella
for the delit masses has unfortunately not materialized towards the end of his life
edar lamented that educated theis had betrayed his expectations his disillusionment extended to the
political representation he fought so hard to secure through reservations he
later demanded the analment out of frustration these experiences teach us a
vital lesson unless the entire population is empowered with fundamental
Provisions such as free health care Universal quality education through a common school system and basic
livelihood security via lands or jobs the concept of representation will
remain Hollow and often Conta productive over the last seven decades we have seen
so-called representatives of the people evolve into some of the worst oppressors
radical politics requires a broader force one that cannot emerge from
fundamental cast identities the clinched idea of bahujan conceived as a coalition of all
oppressed cast and even religious minorities May occasionally secure electoral victories under the fast first
fast the first post kind of system of Elections however it cannot Advance any radical or
emancipatory project the Electoral success of the kir mayavati duo and
similar attempts at show showcasing the unity of the oppressed C might yield
momentary against but it falls short of achieving lasting transformative change
only the unity of the working class can pave the way of the anation of
Gast thank you I think I stop here and uh leave the some time for question and
answer all right yeah sure
sir yes yes uh so whoever wants to ask
questions yeah please please do drop a message uh in the
Box uh where uh like in the chat
box should I ask people to unmute
themselves every time it shows differently to me uh no one has dropped any question
yet uh tendis if anyone has any questions please do uh write in the chat
box uh sat if there's any question on YouTube can you let us know
the Whiteboard okay there are a few
questions ganga can you read those out okay these are to me directly okay
okay I'll read those out so there's a question from uh he's asking uh they're asking
can you talk more about why ambedkar wanted reservation and why it has panned out over the years say it again I didn't
get it yeah they're asking can you talk more about why edar wanted reservation
and why it has spanned out over the years don't out why it has spanned out
over the years okay okay all
right see edar everybody wanted reservation you know reservation
reservation firstly in politics in legislatur and governance bodies Etc and
that was the demand for all communities so was even amedas when he entered the
public life so he started with his southb commission testimony wherein he
wanted some something like uh representation in legislative bodies for
the unteachables and and thereafter his fight actually went on when he in in in
between he went to England to complete his studies came back started his Ms
again and uh
then meaning there were many strands of his
Ms too initially he started assiting like public civil rights at mahad as you
might know and thereafter where he got fated at mahad
struggle uh then he turned his aside to politics because by then the political
Horizons also were opening for this kind of
communal conflicts in a big way so Muslims were given some something like
the separate electorates and reservations in morl reforms and there
after the 19 reform the second installments were due mon chain for reforms and there
there was an opportunity seen by him and he pushed his demands
for the reservations in politics
and first firstly it was something like a joint electorate and separate electorates I hope all understand this
what joint elector and separate electors are and it culminated into Second Round Table conference wherein he pushed
against Gandhi the separate electorate Gandhi was very against separate electorates and ultimately when ambedkar
won separate electorat Gandhi actually sat on indefinite first at yada and challenged it and he almost
blackmailed edar into signing what is called Puna act so this way the reservation in has come in so fighting
for reservation was very natural in those days the the Devolution of powers
to Indians was coming in and then he all the communities wanted the representation to partake the political
share of political power now when he got frustrated was
something like when uh he won separate electorates and was frustrated by Gandhi
in Puna PCT so by uh and Puna PCT granted them more than double
reservation seats but in a joint electorates so initially ambedkar
thought that he got much more he could extract much more from Gandhi but later on something like an quality of
reservation quality of representation it suffered because in joint
electorates the majority will determine the results so whatever the cast Hindu
cast Hindu constituting the majority will only choose such a sedu cast who
who is acceptable to them and you see nowadays what happens thereafter and
this was actually granted for 10 years even Constitution formalized it for 10 years but without anybody is asking this
actually gets extended so even in empirical terms we can see uh whose
interest it is serving so now also there is there are uh reservations given to
schedule cast in legislature so this is this perhaps is uh the ambedkar's kind
of demand and the aftermath that he made about the political reservation the reservations that are
familiar with you people is in the educational institutions and
services public services are of a different kind they emanated from again
the Puna act uh because while negotiating this
deal Gandhi ex undertook that the uh
theit will be accommodated in all structures of thing and they will be
they will take steps to uplift them and there from it came when ambedkar reached
uh viceo executive Council as a minister that time he formalized because until
then until then meaning 1937 to 19 42 uh
this was operating as a preferment policy because britishers were not sure that there were enough educated people
among the scheduled casts and therefore they operated as a preferment policy
something like if anybody brings to their notice that there is a guy who is
educated enough to occupy certain post then British would consider and give him
uh preference so this way the policy operated edar went in and 43 actually
made note to VI Roy that he said uh this kind of policy probably is not working
and there is a definitive quota system need to be instituted and that way then the this
quota system that we are familiar with has come into
being so this of course there there the the about political
reservation there is no controversy per se that this this they have been
detrimental to theit interest and ambedkar actually fought against them in
later life uh but there is a little bit
two opinions about the reservations in educational institutions and public
services theit many delit woulde prefer and it is truth also that these actually
have helped theit otherwise these people would not have got their dues anyway
the that this was the character of C system that it would never grant them de
dues so they got into uh the educa coed
kinds of seats in the education field and then got into public sector and what
today we see as a sizable delit middle class is uh attributed to these
policies so there is the so was not against these these policies lat
policies like educational institution reservation or the service reservations he was not against the uh and nobody is
as such against it but the political reservations have played against the
theit interest that is for sure all
right hello they cannot yeah they cannot unmute themselves actually uh is that
fine uh you can message me there are many
other questions that are how do I can't see people here I can't see you people here how
actually I should I allow people to unmute them ah yeah okay I can see you
now and where is that box where they write the
questions chat box okay yeah yeah it's it's to me directly
so uh should I ask a few more questions uh there is a question called
uh sir could you please theard creamy layer of ass beneficiary in recent
supreme court judgment all right I will just touch upon these questions creamy layer could
you read the question once uh question is he asked about ask me to talk about
the recent exclusion of crey layer ofst beneficiaries and recent supreme court
judgment actually it is not excluded it is a every the judge in that bench
uh expressed their opinion this was a subcategorization case that the reservation of schedule
cast should be subcategorized because all constituent cast are not benefited
equally that was the contention and therefore whatever their share needs to be given to them that kind of uh
argument so in the case this was not actually involved but some judges to
name j GW I think has written about the CRI lay about Etc so this is actually
misconception about the reservation and how this misconception pervades even the Judiciary is the case in
po creamy layer is the schedule cast reservation does not bring in any kinds
of backwardness or anything it is just for a social exclusion it is meant for social against social exclusion so there
is no question of cing layer applied to schedule cast uh there was something like in an
backward cast context the creamy layer came in you know I think Indra Sani
judgment or something like that I'm not very sure about these cases but that is
what it is but this creamy layer is not applicable to schedule cast reservation and uh
as against your this thing notion that
uh it has come in supreme court judgment it's not supreme court judgment it's an opinion of a judge in relation to the
subcategorization Judgment okay then
next is that
okay the Hindu right WI using theit politics talking point like recognizing
a cast Hero by making statue and getting the vote
uh sa vot of saon okay saon vot from the numerically smaller community at least I
can say about West Bengal this is happening was your comment about
this yeah I have not touched upon the Hindu right strategies Etc the there have been been very very wild although
they claim that they above cast and communities the BJP has been the most assit user of the cast and
communities so what what uh their strategy has been uh certain things are
obvious certain things are not so obvious so as most of you might know
that they have been working almost for last 50 years among the tribales and trying to huise them and they have
almost succeeded and thereafter you know initially it started the ban Brahman
party there there no doubt about it but in between then when this actually goes
to the parent RSS so RSS was a ban Brahman Bania kind of organization was
confined to those people only and it remained so until even golwalkar died
golwalkar as an big ideologue of RSS thereafter one guy who me deas balas
deas who took over RSS and he actually transformed it into what is what it is
today this fellow has been a very big strategist and he realized
that if it if it remains confined to just this upper class it not going to
make Mark in the politics of the country because it um it valorizes the politic
valorizes the numbers and they they the combined numbers would not actually reach there so he actually started this
kind of politics and there started sort of uh coping edar into the prasar you
know to be remembered at the day break and they launched something like a
vehicle called samarasa Munch uh so social harmony front wherein all cast
Etc and they started sort of spreading lies like ambedkar met RSS gu
and he had a good relations with him and all kinds of thing and very surreptitiously there are lot of
literature produced you know and distributed among the Locust so that
they are comforted that they are not actually brahminic party and they are al
they have also sympathies like so this way they started doing it and very in very practical terms they realized in
course of time 90s of course the neoliberal reforms came and they got the
boost for their kind of politics and they started sort of expecting that
someday they can also reach the seat of power and there they strategize that
they there are certain minor cast among scheduled cast and they uh are not as
organized you know major major cost meaning with more populist cost among schedule cast are edar rights because
because it actually goes from something like in Maharashtra background background that ambedkar belonged to
mahak which was the most populous cast in the marati speaking area and likewise
in every state there would be a most populous cast who assume that ambedkar
is their man and this became something like an edar rights but there non edar among schedu cast who act maybe
something like a 40% of them or 30% of them so something this Mass BJP started
sort of moving and they uh captured them
so and in process they start started creating their own icons they started
propping up that this thing without antagonizing ambedkar per se and now you
see that all these minor cost they coped and now even the major cost today now
for 2014 onwards there is no doubt about that even the major
ambed parties also are with BJP something like from 2014 onward the
number of Reserve seat that BJP back are more than any other party and 2019
election their tally was more than all the parties put together even in recent
Maharashtra election you know out of 29 reses 20 were backed by uh BJP this is
the kind of thing that happens in Maharashtra Maharashtra which is they of Ed
politics all right next question huh I I have a bunch
of questions here send to me as well should I read one now yeah read it uh
Ani is asking does Professor tum have any views on the controversy over fima
controversy over Fatima sh Fatima sh yeah oh you like to tell me but
something is going on but I couldn't pay attention to that what is controversy can you tell
me uh okay I'll ask any to unmute
the yeah can anyone tell me what is the controversy because I think I I not
aware a you are not aware so I I saw somewhere somewhere just today huhuh
[Music]
oh that is nonsense my wife says that some people some people are
contending that it is false that satima shik was the meaning
she she assisted savitri B
fle uh in teaching uh in the girl school that that pulle
had started so that's nonsense absolutely they will create controversy out of nothing that mus she patima SE
was a Muslim lady and it is well documented that she did so as a co- teer
with savitri f she is great and as savitri P who is today admired by the
world okay s Raj from YouTube they're asking what are the paths ahead if reservations are
question I think a few other people had similar questions I'm I'm not got you oh okay
sorry uh some people are asking what are the paths ahead if reservation what are
the paths ahead like what are the what is the way forward if reservations are fored but
the way forward yeah I think you yeah yeah you talk about it near the end but
yeah there are yeah actually uh what could be the way
forward I indicated in my presentation The Way Forward only could be because if
you use the Edom of cast you are nowhere cast Only Knows splitting okay it splits
like amiba so that has been the empirical experience also for last several years
so so and Way Forward be actually coming
together you know unless you build solidarities you can't have a movement you can't have any struggle you can't
have any anything for that matter so as a result you'll have to sort of identify
on what basis you could come together so the basis the viable basis to come
together is something like a class that's an alternative thing when I say
class you know the many people among the actually get alarm that I'm Marxist Etc
just aing class does not make one Marxist okay I may be any or whatever
but that is that is not the thing a class indicate that your status in the
world you know your uh so on that basis you could come together so that that
that could be the way forward there are few questions out here in the chat box
uh that also I will address you know briefly okay why edar converted into
Buddhism because edar always believe facts over religion and
faith and he I think is he surely know
that doesn't work and we also see it real life theis are confused they are
not proper Hindu not not Buddhist he can also choose atheism at that time he can
also choose atheism at that time uh did not understand question proper
but I probably uh got a sense as to what he
means that when edar embra Buddhism as a way out of uh uh the C
system so whether it was a proper solution or not I I'm also of the
similar opinion that probably this did not address at a personal level or something like at a very spiritual
level that is all okay but religion does not answer that kind of question okay so
today probably what could be ConEd is he used to say that me bhat bodamer in and
marati that means I may I'll make India Buddhist country so all right if when
that was a tall order to expect that kind of thing is a tall order firstly but even suppose supposing in India
becom Buddhist how does it matter will will it be read of cast answer is uh
uncertain okay it so that that's why actually I said in presentation this
they use something like and ambedkar also was overwhelmed by the sacral conception of cast That cast actually
remained in the Hindu scripture they came from Hindu scriptures and in order
to unhal it C the Hindu scriptures are to be destroyed uh there is a problem with
that because the cast that exist in rural areas in very predominant terms
are actually sectarian and associational that's why I actually distinguish cast into three segments and uh clarified
that that that kind of conception was erroneous that to see cast as emanating
from Hindu scriptures was not all that correct and
this was little bit drawn by you know British colonizers because they had
aenda setting power and these people actually followed they were dragged into that kind of thing even the quota system
and everything like one uh lady francisa Jensen says that British had a that
power of setting agenda and most of the Indians were actually dragged into
that so is the case with something like an electoral system whether fptp system
or PR system there is an alternate PR system if the pr system the pr is proportional
representation so if that system had been instituted right at the right in
the Constitution probably many of our problems would not have been there you know so those many many things have come
from these uh misconceptions of things
uh we see as regard Buddhism that uh nowhere we have reached any significance
in terms of Buddhist conversions although everywhere people are attracted to Buddhist conception even the cultural
it actually created a cultural setting which is which could be uh eulogized is
it is a something like counterculture to Hinduism but in fact it may not be so
they are actually emulating the same kind of dominant kind of Hindu culture
in and bringing it into the Buddhist culture there is a confusion of s
whosoever has asked me the question there is indeed a confusion among theit
as to what is what is what has actually happened because in other terms economic
terms and political terms Etc it has not helped anyway even cultural terms it
could not really create a counterculture of that kind so what has then happened
so that's the uh that remains as a question okay next question is how is C
related to feudal mode of production will development of capitalist relations
in agriculture with a cost I have answered this question it's in the
presentation itself uh that when capitalist strategy in agriculture was
adopted in Green Revolution so the relations turned on but but the cap the
cast has resilience so it it became capitalist but it has used
the whatever benefici uh whatever is beneficial to
further capitalist kind of thing it uses the feudal they
actually uses from feudal mode so it is never something like and I have my own
kind of things here that it is not something like when feudal mode is
completely destroyed or taken or then the capitalism comes and capitalism then
is a puritanical mode which actually would assher into socialism and all that
so all these traces of previous mode of production and seeds of future mode of
production will exist in any kinds of modes of production and I Illustrated it in one of my books that if you want to
use the Marxist schema then mode of production will have to be conceived as an hybrid mode of production at any
point in time and it has an implications to the kind of struggles that you
articulate can you explain why cast is something which is not only part of super structure is it part of the base
too is the context of Marx's Bas super structure conception uh well this is a classical
confusion of Marxist this this is actually sterile kind of controversy
created by Bas in super structure which is not very very relevant to the struggle one uh
takes up the cast now the even the Marxist also
concede that cast has been a part of Base as well as super structure using their own language but I do not give
much Credence to this kind of Distinction
so if I may ask a question from here yes yeah so abup is asking can you talk
about why the left both the Electoral and aelite left uh failed to create
Nation Nationwide movement against cast and how that fuel the rise of identity
politics uh uh see aight movement many things
they have taken up you know like then that was the appeal to the dalits
because theit movement was not bringing in results Etc and these people had
taken up the cause of that but they have
they also kept on uh creating the same kind
of this just I said about this base in super structure kind of thing they were also not clear that Clarity never
reached that to that extent so far as I know and they went on sort
of repeating the same old kind of things as regards
cast uh with the Knight movement probably it
has come to it it it it they have contributed to
this kind of thing that cast actually perverts base as well as super structure but they not discarded the base
distinction between base and super structure totally and what was needed is to discard that
you know
uh okay yeah AR is asking can you tell a bit about your new book icono class how
is it different from other edar biographies
uh icon class is different from other biographies in sense that firstly it is
it de heliographs other edar and actually present ambedkar into something
like a a real person who struggled with within a
context so what I stressed in the book is that all great men for that matter
but ambedkar I projected in a very different way edar is not just a great man edar actually epitomizes the
complete history of dalit movement and he becomes very diff uh
special something like is a Pam around which you know 225 million people
whatever the number today of schedule cast is there they can be twed so the
such kind of personality has not been in you will not find easily in history so that's why there is so several ways to
see the importance of ambedkar and ambedkar could then be seen as something like one of the big determinant of the
future of this country so he needed to be projected as such and what I tried to
do is to stress that how edar is something like a case study in that
sense and the younger generation should be learning from it it's not something
like to worship or take him something stereotype great man and all that he was
great no doubt about it but his greatness needs to be understood in the context and what is the what is the use
of human understanding unless you learn from that so the past is to be learned from and that is the way I sort of
presented edar in ion CL so it might
U uh that me it might create little bit unease among many people but I sort of
went on reflecting on his policies so as to just facilitate people's learning you
know you know I as he kept on questioning his decisions his kind of
things uh uh thinking uh and so on and so forth so
it's not the last word that I'm uttering but I am facilitating that way what kind of questions can be asked of edar and
what can what lessons can be draw learned from that therefore okay
yeah okay uh the next question is from mahalakshmi uh they're they're asking uh
my question is can you talk about what has caused the wiant polarization of different left groups itself like edar
rejecting marks and vice versa what fragmentation of left and
dalits is it yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so there are many forces act upon
it and that that is the importance of something like Clarity on
ideology right so many Marxist actually split uh you might have
heard you're too young to know but there used to be something like Marx split that we have this line and this line and
that line kind of thing uh and as a matter of fact there may not be any distinguishing point in the lines but
they will go like that like Bas in super structure for for that matter is again
one big confusion and world over that has been upheld so there are many things about uh
the thing uh uh about that can be said about the
left one of the key factors talking about Indian context when world over
also Marxist have split meaning left has split but talking
about uh Indian context marxists have not understood cast and
cast was a pervasive reality of this land and cast is therefore important it impinges upon their state also so that
that can be broad comment that can be made second thing I would say that
Marx uh the marxists have actually treated Marxism as a quasi
religion okay so it was to be a life science which actually is amable to
change data sets and correcting itself so that was what I would see Marxism was
but that they have not learned from Marx has not given any called kind
of blueprint people take it as a blueprint Marx has actually presented a
something like conceptual schema and and thereafter people have
just this is what happens you know if you make somebody as a big hero then
people actually try kind of in a very different way uh fortunately there is
nothing like Marx is garlanded and Marx is not woried Etc that is fortunate part
of that but this is what happens you know it is no not short of that that
Mark Lenin Salin Ma and all that thing we actually find answers in them their
world and our world there a difference between that and there is lot of water
that flows down the Ganges and people have to take cognition of that so Marxist schema is still valid you
know everything is valid in that but how to sort to
translate and how to actually bring it to our contemporary uh world how to interpret
in the context of our contemporary world is a challenge and that challenge needs to be faced
so otherwise that would go on something like
splintering that this way same is the case with theit movement theit of movement also splintered into Infinite
numbers because they also faltered on the ideology they actually made it
simplified unlike marxists that edar ambedkarism
is against Marxism that is all that is the ruling kind of equation theit use
and with that they went on sort of splintering mej splinters has been there
and another point that could be made is that Ed
pragmatism was translated into something like an opportunism by theit leaders and
where whoever whosoever had given the more kind of thing they kept on selling
to those fellows today all the delit leaders actually are in BJP lab is because of that and they keep on S up
they their Credence with theit has not diminished there are people still going
after them and voting for BJP that
yeah Arian is asking two questions uh the first question is on ground rent in
the rural areas at one point the profit of the capital ists and the wage of the worker were sacrificed for the ground
rate given to the landlord how has the cast and class relation changed I okay
anyway the second question is on a very different note the BJP lost uh many
seats in the last election many were optimistic but however some speculate that the BJP is becoming a party of the
forming bu or labor Aristocrat OBS it was popularized by the book the new BJP
by nalin meeta is this incorrect so say it again say the later part of
BJP uh this the second question is on a very different note the BJP lost many
seats in the last election many were optimistic but however some speculate
that the BJP is becoming a party of the forming bua or labor Aristocrat obeses
it was popularized by the book the new BJP by nin mea is this
incorrect nin yeah I'll I'll just send these two questions to you one is on I think uh
ground rate whether that that is pertaining to the Indian situation and
the second one is on uh this whether BJP is becoming kind of a representation of
the labor Aristocrat OB so I think representative of Labor Aristocrat OBS
like uh landowning obes I think they're trying to say I'm not very sure I shared the questions with what oby labor
Aristocrat oh labor Aristocrat
okay yeah no last election
uh probably has gone in the way atel bhari lost the election you know that
they were over confident that they would get 400 plus seats Etc and that has not
come true but now they are very cautious that because first part the post you could
not be very sure uh uh it is not the voters kind of
choice that matters but the strategy matters in first part the post kind of election okay so now there on BJP has
been very cautious and actually started manipulating the process itself there
are a lot of clamor about voting list manipulation and then
the process around EVMS and so on and so forth and making sure that they uh get
their expected numbers organizationally they are the best organized party
richest organ richest party Etc so those kinds of things are on their
site uh about uh lab labor aristocracy
or something like I I'm I'm confused with that term and related to BJP it is more confusing
but ob's Etc yes OBC their men stay has been obesy because they Hindu obesy and
Hindu wiiz of obesy is very natural because obes is
one mean obes are the cast which are in vicinity of theit their social esteem
depends upon their relative drism VIs theit so if the Brahmin party Embraces them
bobc will be jump on that so the main stay of BJP has been OBC and thereafter
this is supplemented by theit also in massive terms these are two bigger vot Banks today supporting
BJP so that need that in electoral context that needs to be sort of kept in
mind uh previous thing is lost previous
question is I I did not understand and couldn't hear even
properly I I shared the question if you can you check
one uh it's it's the question is on on ground rent in the rural areas H at one
point the profit of the capitalists and the uh wage of the work was sacrificed
for the ground rent given to the landlord how has the cast and class relation changed ground rent given to
the [Music]
capitalist no it's not clear to me
uh in very broad terms I presented the picture you
know as to what changes happened in the r rural site there were
very Monumental changes I some way rhetorically call it the changes that
have not taken place in thousand years before but they go unnoticed okay the entire configuration
of the rural India was changed because of this so-called land reforms and Green
Revolution policies but they go unnoticed now in micro terms
what ground RS or wedges etc etc I have not
had an opportunity to dwell into and I don't
know okay there are few uh few more questions um so Shak was
asking yeah very often it is pointed out that cost based
reservations Narrows opportunities for the general cost especially in the era
when job crisis is accute also there is the question of quality as in
educational institutes reservations lower the medit part can you please elaborate this what is the counter for
this kind of question yeah argument lower the quality bar is
it yeah yeah like how to counter that kind of that kind of question is what shok is asking okay
okay no
the see there are lot of it's not very correct even nowadays
if you consider the present thing it might not be very very much like that
even the very elite institutes if you take reserved reservation cut off Etc are not
very much lower I have been in IIT that is there
but the initial in sort of intake of
reserved uh people you know the theit students
Etc the cut off is really appears low but
they as as they study in The Institute they actually go with that kind of thing
and they get it and many of second order institutions
Etc you would find that theit students actually topping the people topping
the batches you know so nothing much can be construed and soal this Merit
argument is not so valid because theit come with so many
handicaps the Marx is not the only one only parameter with which they their
Merit could be judged okay so they come with many handicaps and that handicap lingers on
for some time but when they cross that barrier that threshold and there are
many delit individuals who have really shown up so it's it may not be
very uh what what to be called not very valid
vikas VP is asking reservations as a policy shall continue to be relevant for
a long-term one but these in themselves are not the solution for annihilation of
cast based operation in the society why has edar politics been reluctant on
waging struggles for division of productive resources of the society example land so the question is why has
edar politics been reluctant on waging struggles for division of productive resources of the society uh like
land uh Ed politics what I've been reluctant on waging strug yeah reluctant
on waging struggles for division of productive resources of the society
example land yeah yeah that is the problem with that politics so I
I stated that that that's a limitation of that because reservation also
alongside when reservations efficacy also depends upon the universal empowerment of people that
way I put it you know so unless people are universally empowered even reservation would not
because reservation is something like a layer on certain things you cannot think of uh without this thing so that kind of
Merit kind of thing will keep keep on cropping up otherwise you know people would basically not empowered they are
not brought in equal terms suppose something like a common school system
had been instituted a simple thing I'm illustrating with uh at the beginning
itself the same quality education is imparted to all the people who are born
at one time so those people would not have uh any difference you know bu up in
them you know they would not inherit something like a disabilities of the people or something like if you born the
then you will go to imperior school get in this thing and then what does the reservation do then because that also
presupposes that you are up a Sim certain minimum
uh uh standing in terms of your academics and all that kind of thing so
alongside there is reservation is not panas at all so the over focus on
reservation uh has been uh ban of edar
politics there has to had to be struggle for the
material uh uh issues of the people's
livelihood that's what I stressed yeah there one question that kind of is
kind of related so abirami is asking are there any limitations of reservation
that affect our movement against fascism against fascism
yeah you know reservation actually plates people that is the kind of thing that happens and
the kind of solidarities required for fighting fism would be it so that is the
detriment detrimental effect the reservation could be attributed
to okay uh ADI is asking uh sir in your opinion uh does
identity politics help in advancing the rights of marginalized groups or does it
risk depending divisions within Society delit
uh no uh does identity politics uh help in advancing the rights of marginalized
groups or does it risk depending divisions within Society yeah
L see identity politics it is obvious actually it helps in mobilizing but it
it always one is not sure when it cross the limit okay and it becomes suddenly
negative so it it then tend to fragment all these
ISS all these kinds of thing that we talk about is the identities they are reduced to identities and on they just
help you to fragment you are separate from others so they will not bring them bring you together
yeah uh this is ramnik is asking uh I was told by a genu professor that in the
book A Part aart by Ashok gopal uh it is claimed that ambedkar was
funded by the Hindu mahasabha for the trip to the Second Round Table conference I have not personally read
the book but it is a claim I have not encountered before is there any truth in this
no okay okay no I don't think even part of part it is written like that so I
don't think I have I had read it in jail itself but and uh commented in Greater
details no that is not true edar was hosted by the British government only so
there is no question of funding by Hindu
mahasabha there are a few more questions so Rakesh is asking uh can you throw the light on the
cast system in Modern India that how it's acting uh covering from the
Constitution covering from the Constitution I think they're asking like
under the Constitution how C system is operating in Modern India that's what I
presented maybe it has not gone across I can share that thing with you then you could read it okay and yeah yeah yeah so
today's cast rather are the Constitutional cast I'm been calling this for a long time so
and have been very critical of this entire gamut
so they are sustained by and they were
uh preserved the Intrigue goes into making of the Constitution itself right
from then it starts and the cast were artificially preserved to divide people because cast and ReliOn religion they
are the two potential weapons in the ruling classes s and they were PR to to be so so no no ruling class will let
they let go of them so because of that they preserved and the alib was
reservations social justice for cast and secularism I have not talked about
secularism of course but secularism also the same trick has been played
to uh make it in a very particular way and very people actually support it
something like sec ISM with Indian characteristic like China says a socialism with Chinese
characteristics okay so let me know if you're getting later anything like when
let me know when we need to stop there are few more questions Bui is asking uh what are your
thoughts on the conflict between the mahad and M communities and how do these conflicts affect the classifications I
think subclassification they're talking yeah categorization between conflict between
Mah no this is not very much confined to Mahar and Mah
is is you can make it something like a majority or populist cast within
schedule cast and minor minor cast in schedule cast so that that kind of
contradiction which is actually pumped by the ruling classes also to some
extent and this categorization issue uh
was Amplified so which has now gone to Supreme Court and Supreme Court gave a
judgment in its favor otherwise it is Linger lingering on since
mid90s started almost in Telangana and before that also there were some traces
of subcategorization so there is see
not no cast is homogeneous that is a very common sensical thing that can be said about it no cast is homogeneous
then there would be always in inequities Etc Among Us also and that they needed
to be ironed out so it is not to be something like playing the game in the hands of ruling classes uh so but this
is what happens the minor car became the prey for their own games
yeahia is asking uh sir what are your views on uh per
Ras view on on on perer perer
yeah views of perar short what to say perar is an important Anti bramin Hero
and uh all these heroes are to be taken in a context you know in the Tamil context
he projected sort of anti brism in a very
uncompromising way so that is very important and some theit in Tamil Nadu
have have different opinion mean again this need to be fabricated because it
not paid enough attention to theit problem and this and that or something like he was on BC Etc but I don't give
uh any value to that kind of argument because this needs to be taken in
context and yes that is past whatever it is but he's
he's a very important person for [Music]
me okay there's one uh very long question uh Jr rupan j is asking
reservation is a base for social representation as one of the working arm for affirmative actions despite all
explanations available why do certain classes of people who emerge emerge from
privileged communities stick a stigma towards AA and criticize while they themselves hold a
50% C for the same TV m in minutes on education
1854 stated British education system they had to bring the P pass percentage
for the second class had to be brought down down from 45 to 33 wherein the
student body consisted of dasas brahmins and kastas so the whole argument on
Merit is flawed isn't it uh when there has been a generational
Advantage uh so I think the question is why is there a stigma related to uh
reservation well yeah I think it can be seen in different way also the questions in different way then can be classed in
that Merit argument kind of thing so is it it that the pass percentage being
brought down from 45 ET Etc so you can actually people add infinum around these
things but uh the basic Point remains that the simple Mark based kind of thing
does not gauge your Merit it's combination of many more things so that
is one of the one of the things it should be understood could be taken as pinch of salt that it does not meaning I have
been vo of a different kind because I'm I also insisted all through my life that
once you reach I meaning once you cross your threshold of handicap Etc you there
should not be any reason left you know for your non-performance so in when academically also the should top there
is nothing Beyond certain things there is nothing like you cannot you cannot
use your background for your non-performance so although I say
so and in person in my personal life I demonstrated that it doesn't really
count you can out compete anybody for that matter that should be the motto
because you may have to struggle a little bit more than other people but
you should get over your handicap and no more this kind of Merit thing you can gives uh opportunity to others to
comment on uh Nika is asking how do the cast
related views of early RSS Leaders compar with those of contemporary
leaders is there a Divergence in the views held by the current leaders of the RSS BJP from those held by early leaders
leaders of the RSS or vhp leaders of RSS or vhp
which no I I already said that that arlier RSS when it Formed Etc up to golw
worker's death it remained as a very renic party and deas actually
extended it to accommodate all the lower cost so there is a huge difference
between these two [Music]
approaches uh there are a few more questions uh narika has a second
question which is how has the presence of Hindu ideology within the
administrative system post 2014 influenced policies and practices uh related to cast and cast
based human rights can specific policies or case studies illustrate this
influence post 2014 cast and cl uh you may not
be uh Discerning their policies regarding cost
Etc but there is the actually you can understand the way they are driving the
whole thing the bjp's policies are
against this reservation Etc you can it's not it
doesn't it doesn't take much brain to understand what they want they want to
recreate something like or bring in something like a brahminic paradigm that existed of course adjusted to present
conditions because that cannot be replicated in to so what are the kinds
of thing that there would be an hierarchy Society basically hierarchical all people are not created equal okay
the some wise people should be at the helm of Affair and they all rest should be falling in
line this kind of egalitarianism etc etc equality
fraternity Etc is nonsense the reservation is nonsense they should go
away and they have they have played out this kind of thing bringing
something like uh what economically weer sections
reservation for that matter you know it's a laughable thing but it's passed by Supreme Court anyway it is it stands
now and been operative so you can predict what they would do it's not
a big deal and this has been going on in
administrative Circles marginalization of the etc etc
is a palpable reality
uh there are two more questions one is uh uh can the gap
between theit politics and left revolutionary politics be bridged and how so that that kind of like what's
that task in the current situation that's one question by yeah
that is what I posed this thing because now this is a wishful thinking that they cannot come together in
a short term but they will have to work in directionally they will have to work
and uh and the pre precondition for this all
is that theit ought to realize their mistakes okay realize
what the cast is what what is possible with cast identities and all those kinds
of things and left also should understand what kind of mistake they have made so directionally if they want
to s these are this is the basic kind of thing that they ought to achieve and thereafter they should move into the
direction that there is no alternative than coming than uh they're coming
together yeah one last
question uh so pru DEA has asked on YouTube uh uh since you have commented
about theit leaders in India I am eager to hear your opinion about uh Tia
valavan theit leader in Tamil NAD oh I
see I would CH talking about the specific person but theuma happens to be
my friend and uh he actually stands out as a one theit leader who whom I would I
would respect okay uh beyond that all theit leaders have been sold out so he
is actually standing firm on ground it is very difficult while I say this thing
and why I say this thing is in the context of the situation political situation today it is very difficult to
stand firm on something and uh uh not compromise in present political Paradigm
so I think he is conducting very well so far so good
okay uh there's one more question should I ask one more
what's yeah so Nika is asking how does the concept of vama Dharma as outlined
in the Riga compared to the perspectives on cast presented by RSS Founders in
terms of ideology see this wna and cast Etc
the are being used by many people but my
understanding of that is the Verna are a conceptual thing vasham is a conceptual
kind of framework whereas cast are the concrete ones okay now how they
came I did not indulge into much of a speculation but uh in my opinion I wrote
it in one of the books is like this that CS are nothing but the tribal identities that India was
a was land it was endowed with very very
good things for agriculture Etc so all that cast we see are the basically
tribal identities and elsewhere they had to undergo change in Social
configuration but in India they actually settled down just like that and when these people outside people so-called
Arians or whoever they were brought in this kind of
Systema for instance they overl their kind of system or ex or the existing
things so according to my theory cast were already there when cast existed and
wna were overl on that and approximately something like they group together and
then hierarchy was created in a society so this was the
thing now you will not find Verna everywhere you know the only end remains
something like a Brahmin at the top and Sh at the thing the the cast actually is
more Salient beyond that when The Untouchables come in so it's very
complicated if you think in those terms so it's it's not so NE necessary
when we are focused onto the change then all these kinds of things becomes an academic
exercise and very speculative at that because there there are there is no support for whatever you
say all over yeah we should is there is there any any
any way we could like people could ask you questions like is there an email ID or anything you could share yeah yeah
actually feel free it's not uh now itself that they should be asking I will
write down my email ID my email ID I think you might be
having so this is my email ID who sir wants to ask any anything
huh who did it reach pran 2 2023
atgl okay okay it's
not yeah I'm not to you not seeing that no pres in English word 2023
gmail.com or ar will have ID okay okay okay okay yeah so yeah yeah yeah who who
want to ask anything I I promise to answer any question okay to the best of my capacity
thank you okay okay thank thanks for joining yeah yeah yeah okay and I I will
share this note also I have made with you time I'll mail it to the registered
okay all right all the anyone wants to okay thank you thank you sir thank you
yeah yeah so if anyone wants to uh uh go
through this notes please drop your email ID to me if you registered already
then I'll be sharing the notes directly there uh sir it's okay you may leave the
call all right thank you bye bye bye thanks thanks a lot for your time thanks
for answering our questions yeah okay uh so thanks for joining the meeting uh
Professor tumra will be going to Pune today so he was in a bit of a hurry uh
I'll be sharing I'll be sharing the notes with everyone please do share your Gmail ID email ID with us if you haven't
already if you have shared it previously as a registered participant then I'll share it there as well and if you want
to be uh uh you know updated about whatever activities we do in Bangalore
as part of spark uh please do share your phone numbers with us we can add you to our updates group if you want to uh write
something for us you can find the find the email ID in the chat you can drop an
article there directly you can also find our old articles at the spark m.in on
YouTube uh this talk is of course has been live streamed there are previous talks and as well as well as other
Snippets from our activities uh you can also follow us on Instagram at the spark mag so thanks for
being there with us for the last two years and hope to uh you know hope to see you again in our future programs